Updating a Bulleid Pacific

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Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Who is interested in applying some post 1967 technology to a Bulleid Pacific and what is the most practical route by which this might be achieved, including suggestions as to specific locos?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35005CP on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Hi 35017 BM - Please can you explain a bit more as to what you are trying to get at? Many Thanks

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:51 pm

Basically to introduce some Porta type thinking.
Firebox converted to gas producer system with heated air ducting, sophisticated superheater header, feedwater heating, Lempor exhaust, roller bearings througout, improved sanding. Maybe Caprotti poppet valves (Bulleid looked at this as an alternative) and a return to 280psi.
Potential benefits greater performance/ greater economy.
I am trying to get a discussion going rather than being rigidly dogmatic about what ought to happen.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 34070 Manston on Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:19 am

35017 BM wrote:Lempor exhaust.
Hmmm.....

That's a new one on me!

How does it comapre with a Giesl Ejector?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35005CP on Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:37 am

This may help. (The LemPor exhaust delivers a 100% improvement in draughting capacity over traditional exhaust systems. The Lempor Ejector also ejects differently to the conventional blastpipe; as one cylinder ejects it creates a vacuum in the other cylinder, thereby requiring less power to drive the piston. Overall the Lempor ejector increases locomotive power by about 40%. Where as the Giesel Ejector was designed to improve blastpipe suction draught and make better use of energy with a claimed coal saving of around 8% and increase in power of as much as 20%. So the same kind of principle really, just a slightly different method.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:13 am

I don't disagree with the above. Of course you can have the same power and significant fuel economy as well as the same fuel consumption and more power.
Even within 75mph there is of course a case for more power when going uphill. By the way, does anybody know the latest situation on attempts to raise the network rail limit from 75mph to 90mph, and where 6'2" driving wheels would fit into this thinking?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:19 am

One extra thing I meant to add - a Lempor exhaust has been fitted to the odd dngine on the Bure Valley and Welshpool & Llanfair, but so far it hasn't been used on a main line loco in the UK (eith with or without a main line ticket). I think some sort of trial would be very interesting -if you put Lempor Exhaust into google you can read quite a bit about it.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35005CP on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:30 am

From what I understand the Lempor Exhaust was used on a Garrett to trial it? Going back to raising the Mainline speed of a Steam Loco from 75mph to 90mph; wasn't this idea banned because of the Safety aspects going back to railways disasters over the years in the UK?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:17 am

The Lempor Exhaust was used on a rebuilt 19D in South Africa and also on the class 26 'Red Devil'. Ibelieve it did 'what it said on the box', and it was also used in South America. However these places are rather remote and operating speeds and requirements not entirely like the UK. I think there would be more impact if people could see what it could do in the UK, preferably on the mainline, but failing that on a preserved line (where the emphasis would be on economy achieved). I don't know of its use on a garratt ( but I do know that the fastest speed achieved with a garratt -in excess of 80mph,was achieved in France with a garratt designed for Algeria with Cossart valve gear, another interesting piece of kit).
As regards a 90mph limit I know the A1 people have been trying to do something about this - one of the issues has been lack of experience of today's crews in operating steam at more than 75.
By the way Lempor is made up from Lemaitre and Porta as it reflects the thinking of both these engineers, and as such there is an interesting link back to the arrangement Bulleid pacifics already have.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 34070 Manston on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:26 pm

35017 BM wrote:Who is interested in applying some post 1967 technology to a Bulleid Pacific and what is the most practical route by which this might be achieved, including suggestions as to specific locos?
I've been reading this thread with interest, and one of the main things to decide is whether you would apply "post 1967 technology" to a "Barry Island Hulk" or go down the new-build route.

This, I imagine, would be decided by the usual over-riding factor in just about everything these days - money!! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:27 am

You are absolutely right about money!
Starting with something which is already there ought to be far cheaper. In Barry days getting to first base (i.e. buying the engine) was much cheaper (especially as there wasn't a copper firebox to pay for). Am I right in thinking that people have fancy ideas about what a 'Barry hulk' is worth these days?
Do people have any ideas about what might be ana available loco on favourable/reasonable terms, or would someone like to apply some of the technology (for example just the Lempor exhaust) to something that is already 'on line'?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 34070 Manston on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:10 am

35017 BM wrote:Do people have any ideas about what might be ana available loco on favourable/reasonable terms, or would someone like to apply some of the technology (for example just the Lempor exhaust) to something that is already 'on line'?
You might want to take a look at a thread I started on 08 July, last year.

http://nineelms.freeforum.me.uk/t117-the-railway-magazine

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:09 am

Thanks for this. I have tried sending an e-mail this afternoon to the bulleid project address and it comes back 'domain name not known'. The Bulleid Society site lists the 'Remembrance Line' (Folkestone Harbour) as having an interest in 35011.

Restoring an MN to 'original condition' was not exactly what I had in mind, although that has been long talked about as an idea and is commendable in its own right.

Google has some good material on the Bulleid chain driven valve gear. One of its problems seems to have been its geometry. Can anybody enlighten me as to whether that aspect would present an absolute inherent flaw or is it something that could be improved by somebody with the right kind of understanding and intelligence?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by Nickt on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:15 am

35017 BM wrote:
Google has some good material on the Bulleid chain driven valve gear. One of its problems seems to have been its geometry. Can anybody enlighten me as to whether that aspect would present an absolute inherent flaw or is it something that could be improved by somebody with the right kind of understanding and intelligence?

Bullieds are currently operating with two completely different types of valve gear; the original miniature chain-driven Walschaerts gear in an oil bath and the rebuilts' three separate conventional Walschaerts sets, so many things are possible. (Reputedy 34110 was built so long after 34109 bacause consideration was given to fitting it with Caprotti.) However a Bulleid pacific isn't necessarily a good starting place for such a project as gas producer fireboxes are better if long and thin, which is one of the reasons that the 5AT project uses the 4-6-0 configuration. http://www.5at.co.uk/


Last edited by Nickt on Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:34 pm

I was aware that the rebuilt Bulleid's have conventional valve gear (it is very visible!). There is still a point about the geometry of the exact design of the chain driven gear. I accept what you say about gas producer fireboxes and I think the 5AT idea is very interesting. However, in terms of getting the enthusiast community (and people more generally) interested in advancing steam technology producing something that people can see going along producing striking performance may be an important step along the way. It is also vastly cheaper to modify something which already exists than to start with thin air.
Interestingly Bulleid got Caprotti to produce an alternative valve gear for the MNs way back in 1940. 34010 rather than 34110 might have been a better point to think about the alternative valve gear (also had Bulleid already moved on by 1950(?) when 34110 appeared?

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by Nickt on Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:20 pm

Bulleid started work at Inchicore on 1st October 1949. 34110 was ex-shopped in January 1951, 8 months after 34109. Is there any hard evidence that the Caprotti option really existed or was the cause of the delay? I think the original MN design was for a bevel gear, not chain, drive to the valve gear in the oil bath but suitable gears couldn't be sourced in 1941. You're right that fitting 34110 with Caprotti wouldn't have solved the issues for the rest of the fleet, though as a Sidmouth resident 34010 is close to my heart and I don't like to think of it as a guinea pig. Smile The 5AT project is technically excellent but they need several million to make it happen. I'm not convinced that taking an ex-Barry MN would save much money either.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:18 pm

Nick
I am glad you care about Sidmouth. Among the light pacifics that seems to leave only 34073 with an uncertain future: and it seems to be pretty expensive at the moment. I read one account that somebody would like to restore it as 'Fighter Pilot' as a sort of generic 'Battle of Britain' memorial engine. Do you know what the latest state of play is?
Actually the 5AT project as it stands is for an oil-fired engine (hence no gas producer system). Apart from money there is also the issue of all the hassle of getting a completely new design on to BR tracks (i.e. no grandfathering rights because it isn't really based on a BR type).
One reason for my interest is that the future of Merchant Navies seems less assured and I would far sooner that one appeared in its original guise and maybe that one was used for some perhaps modest refinements (e.g. exhaust system and alternative valve gear) than that they end up being mere sources of spare parts. I suspect that their running costs in a preserved line environment are an issue.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by Nickt on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:12 am

I ran a meeting in Sidmouth to tell people about the loco earlier in 2010, and I am going to do another one next year. Local people are interested, but it's a major project which will need lots of new supporters. I'm currently developing a personal website featuring the East Devon Pacifics:

https://sites.google.com/site/eastdevonbulleids/home

It's still WIP; I have quite a lot about Sidmouth but less about the others - if anyone has photos or reminiscences of these locos I'd like to hear from them.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:28 am

As a child I live in Portsmouth, hence:
34010 I took a colour slide, rebuilt, at rear of Eastleigh shed (not sure if it still exists?)
34014 see once heading West, rebuilt, while at a cricket match at Farlington
34018, October 1960, hauled an excursion from Portsmouth Harbour to Blackpool as far as Basingstoke. (Carriages were brought in by 34074 which I footplated). I can see (and almost hear!) Axminster making its way steadily across the bridge outside Potsmouth Harbour in the dark.
34020 unrebuilt at Portsmouth & Southsea High Level.
34025 rebuilt, Salisbury I think going in London direction.
34034, original condition visiting Fratton shed, much later,rebuilt, no nameplate, filthy in the middle road at Bournemouth Central.
34045 - a regular sie at Cosham working trains along the cost to and from Brighton,later at Winchester rebuilt on up Bournemouth Belle.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by Nickt on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:49 am

35017 BM wrote:As a child I live in Portsmouth, hence:
34010 I took a colour slide, rebuilt, at rear of Eastleigh shed (not sure if it still exists?)
34014 see once heading West, rebuilt, while at a cricket match at Farlington
34018, October 1960, hauled an excursion from Portsmouth Harbour to Blackpool as far as Basingstoke. (Carriages were brought in by 34074 which I footplated). I can see (and almost hear!) Axminster making its way steadily across the bridge outside Potsmouth Harbour in the dark.
34020 unrebuilt at Portsmouth & Southsea High Level.
34025 rebuilt, Salisbury I think going in London direction.
34034, original condition visiting Fratton shed, much later,rebuilt, no nameplate, filthy in the middle road at Bournemouth Central.
34045 - a regular sie at Cosham working trains along the cost to and from Brighton,later at Winchester rebuilt on up Bournemouth Belle.

I'd love to see that colour slide of 34010. My "day job" is to look after the SLL gallery: http://southernlocomotivesltdphotogallery.fotopic.net/c1739549.html We've only four colour photos of '10 in BR service.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:06 am

Some of my coloured slides went adrift when they went to Cameroon a long time ago. Don't know if that applies to 34010. Maybe this will encourage me to go through my 35mm slides and sort them out!
I have black and white pictures of 34019, 34027 and 34109 in BR days I can just e-mail across (as well as things like W24 at Ventnor). I would like, however, to preserve the copyright. Do you know the ins and outs of that??
I am also pretty sure I have read a log of Sidmouth on a train working up from Southampton to London. It was, I think, CJ Allen, who said he thought it was a model performance, i.e. gets you there on time but without doing more than you have to. Also take a look at where the Bulleids lived on google. Bulleid's dad came from North Tawton, mid-Devon. It might interest potential local supporters.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35005CP on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:14 am

Have you thought about starting a fotopic site? This way it is very easy to preserve the Copyright to yourself. You can stop people using fotopic if you like from downloading you're pictures.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:26 am

That's very helpful. I will ask my computer orientated son how to do it.
Many thanks and I wish you well in the New Year with 'Sidmouth'.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by Nickt on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:41 am

35017 BM wrote:That's very helpful. I will ask my computer orientated son how to do it.
Many thanks and I wish you well in the New Year with 'Sidmouth'.

Thanks - best wishes to you too.

Opening a Fotopic account is easy, and the base level is free. http://fotopic.net/register/

My personal rail photos are on a Fotopic site: http://nick301.photos.us.com/ I get plenty of hits and occasional comments. They are marked with a copyright. I enjoy sharing these photos with like-minded people, and would not be too upset if some were "borrowed", though I'd rather they asked first. If people offer me a photo for use on a website I acknowledge their copyright - wihile old photos like these are of great personal value they are of very little commercial value, and most of us are happy to share.

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Re: Updating a Bulleid Pacific

Post by 35017 BM on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:54 am

That's very helpful. My main interest is in ensuring that these things are not 'lost' and are available for people to enjoy. However, like you, I would prefer people to ask to use them and provide due acknowledgment.
By the way a film was made of Bulleid Pacifics (and perhaps some other locos) in colour circa 1967 and incorporated still shots at Nine Elms. I wouldn't know whether Sidmouth (or any other East Devon favourities) featured in it.

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