Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

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Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 35005CP on Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:32 am

Hi all,

Please feel free to post as you wish - But it seems Nine Elms wasn't just a job? It was a jolly good time and so any job should be? Enjoyable... H&S these days have gone mad!

But even after a day on the footplate as I have done on so many occasions - Going for a pint afterwards on the RAT on the MHR is very much needed! Wink

We often jump off the footplate (From the bottom step, I acent to add) on the move, but this isnt allowed these days in practice...

I thought I would kick this section off.

What did Nine Elms Enginemen do? Or any enginemen do back in the 50's/60's?

Thanks

Andy

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:04 am

Admin wrote:
We often jump off the footplate (From the bottom step, I acent to add) on the move, but this isnt allowed these days in practice...

It isn't allowed, Admin, because it is a stupid thing to do

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:55 am

The loco is only moving slightly at Alton when running round.

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:19 am

Yeah, Admin

So was the loco when, not long ago, a freight company shunter alighted by jumping from the bottom step, whilst it was moving.

Trouble is, ballast can move, it did, he went the wrong way, 126 tonnes of loco is very good at taking your foot off, which it did

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:09 am

I have seen other more dangerous things, be it on Youtube and another railway! One of the things was Fireman pushing the coal forward on top of the tender while the loco was in motion...
And besides this thread isn't supposed to be depressing!! Does anybody have any positive memories from the 60's?

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:06 pm

My view Admin, if the H&S at work act had been in place in the 1960s, nothing would have moved. Trains would have been late or cancelled. I think nowadays, the act has gone overboard. Its now a blame culture.

Let me give you examples of the 1960s.

1. Oiling the underneath, middle engine, and back straps on the pit. Ive been under there with feeder and Oil Lamp, and the shedman has come along, and blowdown the boiler. I came out choking.

2. After working the Queen Mary Boat train to Ston Docks with 34015, and LE to Eastleigh. We were booked to dispose of engine. The Queue was long. My Driver, said he was off to see the Running Foreman. So not to waste time, I went round to clean the smokebox. I started to shovel out the dust, and the next thing, the bang, and loco had shifted. And I ended up in the Smokebox, adjacent to the Blast Pipe. A montgoliper had hit me up the rear. luckily I didnt fall off the other way.

My mate came back, I had a black face, slight burns, but ok. My mate was laughing, but he still had a go at that Driver of the U.

3. I used the pricker to get some coal from the back of the tender, whilst on the move.
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:24 pm

So, what you are saying Ilfracombe, is that its OK to do dangerous things providing its to get the job done, to get home or to the pub early?

I've heard a number of stories from the 50's, from my father (who was a fitter at the "Brick"), of fitters, drivers and fireman getting maimed or worse through doing something unsafe.

I've seen it myself in my years on the job, as I'm sure that you have, Ilfracombe

It is not a case that the only way to get the job done quickly is the unsafe way, Once we have to do it safely, then we find effiective ways of doing it safely, as most heritage railways have managed.

I think that you'll find that the figures in those days for serious and fatal injuries on the railway were much much higher than they are now (even if we look at jobs that are still comparable, like ground shunters and Pway).

So H & S means that more people are going home to their families, that is a good thing, no?

I find it strange that, when you bxllxck someone for doing something unsafe, they get the strop and you are the bxrstxrd. You've probably saved their life, but, hey ho!

Admin, two wrongs do not a right make

In the respect of heritage railways, they may be preserving the past, but they have a legal responsibility and still have to be compliant under ROGS (just like the Big railway), to ensure the health and safety of their employees, the public and contractors. There are, after all, some parts of the past that we don't want to preserve, it aint all rose tinted spectacles

The thread is surely about discussing the subject, if you talk about safety then, inevitably, talk of injuries and fatalities will come up. If this discussion was taking place in a shed lobby, that would certainly be the case, those of us who have been there know that to be the true. The railway is a dangerous place, trouble is there are some on heritage lines (and I've seen it a number of times) who play trains and dont see, or don't want to see the dangers. They are, after all, volunteers, so they can do as they like, cant they?

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:18 am

No, Im not saying its ok to do it these days, 33110. far from it

Admin asked me what went on in the early 60s, and I responded. I stated that, if Steam was on BR metals these days, then nothing would move.

All I stated was IMHO, that Safety Issues, has gone too far these days, and I stand by my statement?
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:43 am

We will have to agree to differ then, Ilfracombe

If steam was still about, in the way that it was, then methods of working would have adapted and the job would still run. Lets face it, most corners are cut, not to get the job done, but to an effort to get done early

In my career, if I had a quid for the amount of times I'd heard "oh if we do it that way, the job will stop", I'd be able to keep you supplied in doughnuts. We do it the safe way and the job runs

In my experience the cutting of corners have been for this reason 90% of the time with about 10% to "help the company out"

I disagree that H & S has gone too far on the big railway, its a far safer place than it has ever been.

I am for people getting home in one piece

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:09 am

Im afraid on this issuem we will have to differ.

From 65 to the end of Steam, after Diesels took over the West Of England line. We had a shortage of locos, due to the scrapping. It was expected of us, for a quick turn round- to keep the services going. Anything went by the board, some I will keep quiet about.

Yes, you are right about these days, and with the Motive Power we had then, would not have worked today.

Dont make me type to much today, im struggling. My main PC is in for repair, and on an antiquated laptop.
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:13 am

OK mate, you are excused typing for tonight!

Adding a second thoughts edit

Actually what would be interesting would be wether the personal accident statistics show an increase from \'65 till the end of steam, given the conditions under which everyone was working.

I could look them up ....

... on the other hand I could also prise my eyes out with a sharp stick


Last edited by 33110 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:17 am

thankyou, thats for approx, the next 4 days. And you should know from experience how I get on with computers
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:20 am

Ah

Computers are one thing, computers on trains are another, but we digress

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 35005CP on Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:52 am

33110 wrote:We will have to agree to differ then, Ilfracombe

If steam was still about, in the way that it was, then methods of working would have adapted and the job would still run. Lets face it, most corners are cut, not to get the job done, but to an effort to get done early

In my career, if I had a quid for the amount of times I'd heard "oh if we do it that way, the job will stop", I'd be able to keep you supplied in doughnuts. We do it the safe way and the job runs

In my experience the cutting of corners have been for this reason 90% of the time with about 10% to "help the company out"

I disagree that H & S has gone too far on the big railway, its a far safer place than it has ever been.

I am for people getting home in one piece

33110, How am i saying that 2 wrongs don't make a right? I am just saying how things were...

As for running around at Alton, you will always see a Fireman or 3rd man come off the footplate to change the points while the loco passes the points. This is done very carefully and at very low speed; crawling in fact. So I don't see the problem as the loco is effectively stationary!

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:51 pm

Admin

I've explained what the problem is or the danger, presumably, by being on the bottom step whilst the loco moves slowly, you are also then riding on the outside of the loco whilst it is moving, another dangerous act?

I'm sure that the MHR don't condone either act?

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:08 am

33110. I am sure that in your days as a Second Man, that Shunters in the Yard, were jumping off the Diesel Loco; to pull the points; whilst the Loco was still in motion. I believe that is what Admin is getting at?
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:06 am

Ilfracombe

I diisagree

Admin is talking about what he currently does on a heritage railway, not what was done in the past

Admin wrote:
H&S these days have gone mad!
We often jump off the footplate (From the bottom step, I acent to add) on the move, but this isnt allowed these days in practice...

Admin wrote: As for running around at Alton, you will always see a Fireman or 3rd man come off the footplate to change the points while the loco passes the points. This is done very carefully and at very low speed; crawling in fact. So I don't see the problem as the loco is effectively stationary!


Two very different things, I'm afraid

I'm sure that the MHR doesn't train people to act like this, nor condone such actions

These days, Ilfracombe, if my mate did this, I'd stop the move and give him a rollocking

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:13 am

33110 wrote:Ilfracombe

I diisagree

Admin is talking about what he currently does on a heritage railway, not what was done in the past

Admin wrote:
H&S these days have gone mad!
We often jump off the footplate (From the bottom step, I acent to add) on the move, but this isnt allowed these days in practice...

Admin wrote: As for running around at Alton, you will always see a Fireman or 3rd man come off the footplate to change the points while the loco passes the points. This is done very carefully and at very low speed; crawling in fact. So I don't see the problem as the loco is effectively stationary!


Two very different things, I'm afraid

I'm sure that the MHR doesn't train people to act like this, nor condone such actions

These days, Ilfracombe, if my mate did this, I'd stop the move and give him a rollocking


You still have not answered the question 33110, do you agree that this practice was done in the 50s/60s/70s or not?
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:26 am

I thought I'd answered that.

I said that the thrust of the current conversation is about what Admin has said he does, today, on a heritage railway, I said that things were very different now from what they were in the past

I said that we cannot preserve the practices of the past that are now deemed to be unsafe

What we may or may not have done in the past is irrelevant to today, that was then, this is now

Of course I accept that things like that were done in the 50's 60's and 70's (and I did say that there were more injuries and fatalities in those days, did I not?)

However, we don't do things like that now, we are more aware, we are trained to be more conscious of safety and the operators concerned (be they big railway or heritage) have more regulation to comply with (as you have said yourself) and face the prospect of criminal proceedings for not doing so (as do we as individuals)

I know that every heritage railway that I have ever been involved in or am involved in, would not condone people riding on the outside of loco's or vehicles whilst they are in motion, nor the getting off of a loco or vehicle whilst it was in motion

Does that answer your question?

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:30 am

thankyou 33110 for your input, and claifying what happenened in those era*s, Which is what we are discussing, Enginemens tales, really from the past Smile
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:43 am

Well Ilfracombe, what you say is partly true, but as Admin raised the issue of what he currently does on a heritage railway, I responded with my view, being, I think, qualified to comment


It's about free comment which, I know, you support

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:58 am

You are absolutely right 33110,you are free to comment. And you know, that we are bother supporters of free comment to debate; argue etc.

The question now to you, is why you only partially agree, and not fully; what went on?

33110. Im sure that when Admin returns that he will answer your questions in full. At present, he is currently engaged on more important issues. He will be unavailable tomorrow, as he has family to visit. But what I will say to you, is on preserved railways.. Is it not correct, that the Driver of a loco, is in charge of Fireman/third man to allow these practices to continue? And would you not agree with me, that it would have been seen; and gone to a higher level?
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:04 am

33110

As Admin is presently unavailable, and unable to reply. As Moderator, I feel that I must temporary lock this thread until his return. He will unlock, and reply soon Smile
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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 35005CP on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:23 am

33110, I will unlock this thread for now and will see how it goes...

I believe 34017 Ilfracombe was right in locking this thread. After all this is meant to be a friendly forum and some of the posts that have been written are not right for this type of forum.

If you want to discuss this further then please PM me.

So lets get back on topic regarding "Nine Elms Engineman's Tales" and refrain from discussing about these previous posts.

Many Thanks

Admin

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Re: Nine Elms Enginemens Tales

Post by 33110 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:39 am

PM sent, as per protocol for personal comments from one user to another

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