5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

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5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:42 am

The Brighton Belle ran between Victoria and Brighton daily. For those whom dont remember the all Pullman Car train, the Stock consisted of 3x 5 Car units. Numbers 3051. 3052. and 3053. British Rail withdrew the service in 1972. VSOE, used some of the Pullmans for their Victoria - Folkestone services.

Now I read tonight, that plans are in hand to restore a unit, as 2 MC have been bought

http://www.brightonbelle.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=53

Will we see it back on the Main Line, I have my doubts?
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 am

Isn't it wooden shell in design? Because if that is the case the answer will certainly be a NO!! Although where will the unit run? And thanks for the link. I haven't seen or heard of this till today....

Thanks

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:41 am

Yes, you are absolutely correct, wood is involved.

Which as you know was the reason for the ban on the 2 BIL 2090.
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:45 am

And the 4-Cor unit as well - But I hope this goes running again this 5-BEL unit - But unfortunatly like the rest of this older stock it won't be allowed to run mainline - As it is a shame as I haven't seen any of this running in my lifetime....
Lets hope a privatised railway decides on 3rd rail power to run stock like this....

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:26 pm

34017 Ilfracombe wrote:Yes, you are absolutely correct, wood is involved..

The Bel coaches are not wood, they are of all steel construction, I am told that they are more advanced than a Mk 1, more like a Mk 2

The trailers were built at the same time and in the same batch as the coaches that were in the 6 Pul/CIT units

So there could be hope, with the fitment of OTDR, CRS/GSMR. TPWS etc, plus central door locking

All not impossible

One issue might be that they don't have (I think) buckeyes between coaches within the set, but have buffers and screw couplings. They might have to be retro-fitted with autocouplers of some sort or some other form of over ride protection

Didn't they have Westinghouse auto brake (triple valves)?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:26 am

Interesting reply 33110, and one that im going to take my time in replying too. Had long discussion with *windmills* this very morning, concerning this, Im unsure, but Doris from 3052 is on the Bluebell at Horstead Keynes, and will investigate interior in August
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:09 am

Make sure you do!! I'll be there to check up on Doris as well! Smile

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:42 am

Well as you know Admin, Im a stickler for getting my facts right. Ive already aware that Cork was used on the pullmans Smile
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:07 am

You certainly know your stuff!! I hope 34059 is hauling Doris and the rest of the rake at the Nine Elms reunion!? Wink

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:36 pm

Ah 33110, they are discussing this on another forum; that we both belong too

Quotes

Forget it - it will never happen.

1) Wooden bodied coaches.
2) Screw couplings.
3) 750 line volts on the controllers under the desk.
4) Line volts now upped from 650 to 850+ since 1972.
5). Westinghouse brake - three applications and it's gone.

Not going to happen - ever!!

None the less if the coaches are wooden bodied or have wooden body framings under steel / light alloy sheet metal cladding, theres very little chance of the thing running on the main line on its own with passengers in it.

http://www.wnxxforum.com/interactive/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5426&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=25

But I am not going any further, until ive Inspected Doris? Smile
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:27 am

According to this

http://www.brightonbelle.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=56

The coaches are all steel

Three applications and you've no brake? what are they talking about?

You have as many applications as you want if you allow the aux res's time to charge and even if you don't you have a number of applications whilst you still have pressure in the aux res's, providing you drop the train pipe enough to allow the triple valve to do its job

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:38 am

Launceston

You are completely right

The quotes are either from someone who has never driven westinghouse / triple valved stock or who couldn't drive them properly

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:42 am

Look; I just transferred the Quotes over 34012 Launceston, and 33110 from the forum, where I enclosed the link

Yes, I drove Westinghouse stock as well. But, im interested in the Pullmans body of Doris at the moment.

Bearing in mind. I last travelled on the Brighton Belle in 1959!
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:48 am

Ilfracombe

Yes, we know that you transfered the quote over from WNXX

It was the poster of the original comment on WNXX to whom we were refering and if you look on WNXX, I've replied on there as well

I'm fully aware of what you drove / what your knowledge is, I used to do your assessments, remember?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34012 Launceston. on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:00 am

34017 Ilfracombe wrote:Look; I just transferred the Quotes over 34012 Launceston, and 33110 from the forum, where I enclosed the link

Yes, I drove Westinghouse stock as well. But, im interested in the Pullmans body of Doris at the moment.

Bearing in mind. I last travelled on the Brighton Belle in 1959!

My comments were not aimed at you, but at the original poster.

However having said that, I have to question your decision to copy the quote directly with your experience.
No malice intended. Still friends?
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:40 am

I have to say that surely the BEL sets aren't as advanced as the CEP units as an example for Applications surely? So what is the Charge like on a BEL set?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:40 am

34012 Launceston. wrote:
34017 Ilfracombe wrote:Look; I just transferred the Quotes over 34012 Launceston, and 33110 from the forum, where I enclosed the link

Yes, I drove Westinghouse stock as well. But, im interested in the Pullmans body of Doris at the moment.

Bearing in mind. I last travelled on the Brighton Belle in 1959!

My comments were not aimed at you, but at the original poster.

However having said that, I have to question your decision to copy the quote directly with your experience.
No malice intended. Still friends?

Hang fire Admin please on this one, yes you are right; not to bring comments posts from one forum to another. My sole interest is this forum, but the Brighton Belle is an issue; that ive stated IMHO, will not go ahead. Admin, from memory of 1959, 50 years ago. Good grief, (some members may have been toddlers-bless em) there was wood in the interior.

Now back to 34012 Launceston, and Westinghouse Stock. One had to be careful, using too much heavy braking. Use too much, and you were left with nothing until Main Res recharged the Brake Pipe. I think thats what drh was getting at? I certainly wanted too arrive on Brake Blocks at Wloo with 12 COR, knowing that I could put enough air into the Brake Cylinders; even though we dragged em in?

Yes, we are still friends Launceston, weve been there Smile
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:48 am

How about my reply above?
The Brighton Belle as I was aware was all-steel frame and wooden body?

I was also certain that anything with wooden interior wouldn't be allowed onto electrified lines? Unless of course the current 5 BEL set is to be stripped of its current setup and to be redesigned with something else?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:07 am

34017 Ilfracombe wrote: Good grief, (some members may have been toddlers-bless em)

And others weren't born

34017 Ilfracombe wrote: One had to be careful, using too much heavy braking. Use too much, and you were left with nothing until Main Res recharged the Brake Pipe. I think thats what drh was getting at?

The issue is, of course, not what the main res puts into the brake pipe (as a direct issue) but rather how much air has been used in the aux res and, therefore, how much is left to unbalance the triple valve against another brake pipe reduction, in order to move the triple valve slide over and thereby making a brake application. drh seems to be quoting old chestnuts rather than true theory and practical experience.

The old chestnut coming from a misunderstanding of how the system actually works and the morbid fear put into drivers by some instructors banging on about slow aux res feed through the feed groove (the seven second rule). This theory being based on the miss-assumption that, to get another brake application, you needed a full 70 psi in the aux res which, of course, is not the case

They key to second and subsequent applications is to know what your brake pipe pressure is when you release the first application and to then reduce the brake pipe pressure below that level to get the next application

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:14 am

33110 wrote:
34017 Ilfracombe wrote: Good grief, (some members may have been toddlers-bless em)

And others weren't born

34017 Ilfracombe wrote: One had to be careful, using too much heavy braking. Use too much, and you were left with nothing until Main Res recharged the Brake Pipe. I think thats what drh was getting at?

The issue is, of course, not what the main res puts into the brake pipe (as a direct issue) but rather how much air has been used in the aux res and, therefore, how much is left to unbalance the triple valve against another brake pipe reduction, in order to move the triple valve slide over and thereby making a brake application. drh seems to be quoting old chestnuts rather than true theory and practical experience.

The old chestnut coming from a misunderstanding of how the system actually works and the morbid fear put into drivers by some instructors banging on about slow aux res feed through the feed groove (the seven second rule). This theory being based on the miss-assumption that, to get another brake application, you needed a full 70 psi in the aux res which, of course, is not the case

They key to second and subsequent applications is to know what your brake pipe pressure is when you release the first application and to then reduce the brake pipe pressure below that level to get the next application

Some may not have been born! But by 'Eck they had a good teacher!

So do you know the science behind these BEL units? I have to wonder if you have any experience of these units and just going by the EMU units of CEPS, VEPS and CIGS???

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:15 am

Yes well, I had good instructors in the 60s on Westinghouse Stock. Bob Philips and Terry Smith, all I learnt went in and stayed in till their withdrawl. I expect 34012 Launceston had them as well, unless Wally Ward?
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:27 am

Admin wrote:
So do you know the science behind these BEL units? I have to wonder if you have any experience of these units and just going by the EMU units of CEPS, VEPS and CIGS???

I have no experience of working 5 BEL units, I have experience of Subs onwards, not sure why I have to justify what I am saying, though

I am talking about the Westinghouse auto air brake which is pretty much the same, even on later stock (apart from the brake valves and, on 1963 stock, the triple valves) where it was fitted in addition the EP brake

Then there was the triple valve fitted ferry vans, rail carrying wagons coverted from former EMU trailers and Met Line T stock

Where does my knowledge come from? Wally Ward, George Bowman, Bernie Bernes, Eric Christian, Ralph Sullivan, Don Ottignan etc, etc and my training as an instructor on this stuff (taught to instruct by some of these)

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:31 am

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/air-brake1.htm

Well you either use it or you lose it....until its recharged!

As for justfying what you say you argue a post so proof etc is required is it not?


Last edited by Admin on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:34 am

Admin

Sorry, your point is, what?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:36 am

Read the post again - I am sure all will become clear 33110... May help if you look at the link I posted as well....

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