5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:39 am

Admin

Yup, read the post and the link prior to asking the question

and your point is what?

That I don't know what I am talking about?

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:39 am

Below we illustrate the main parts of the Westinghouse brake as applied to a vehicle. The supplementary reservoir brake cylinder and triple valve are shown in position, and as fitted upon the engine, tender, and each vehicle of the train. Air compressed by a pump on the locomotive to, say, 70 lb. or 80 lb. to the square inch fills the main reservoir on the engine, and flowing through the driver's brake valve and main pipe, also charges the supplementary reservoirs throughout the train. When a train is running, uniform air pressure exists throughout its length--that is to say, the main reservoir on the engine, the pipe from end to end of train, the triple valves and supplementary reservoirs on each vehicle, are all charged ready for work, the brake cylinders being empty and the brakes off. The essential principle of the system is, that maintaining the pressure keeps the brakes off, but letting the air escape from the brake pipe, purposely or accidentally, instantly applies them. It follows, therefore, that the brake may be applied by the driver or any of the guards, or if necessary by a passenger, by the separation of a coupling, or the failure or injury to a vital part of the apparatus, whether due to an accident to the train or to the brake; and as the brake on each vehicle is complete in itself and independent, should the apparatus on any one carriage be torn off, the brake will nevertheless remain applied for almost any length of time upon the rest of the train.

The triple valve, as will be seen, is simply a small piston, carrying with it a slide valve, which can be moved up or down by increasing or decreasing the pressure in the brake pipe. As soon as the air from the main reservoir is turned into the brake pipe, by means of the driver's valve, the piston is pushed up into the position shown, and air is allowed to feed past it through a small groove into the reservoir. At the same time the slide valve covers the port to the brake cylinder, and is in such a position that the air from the latter may exhaust into the atmosphere. The piston has now the same air pressure on both sides; but if the pressure in the brake pipe is decreased, the piston and slide valve are forced down, thereby uncovering the passage through which air from the reservoir flows into the brake cylinder between the pistons, thus applying the brakes. The brake pipe is shut off as soon as the triple valve piston passes the groove. To release the brakes, the piston and slide valves are again moved into the position shown, by the driver turning air from the main reservoir into the brake pipe.

The air in the brake cylinder escapes, and at the same time the reservoir is recharged.
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:45 am

Thanks for posting this 34017 Ilfracombe....

33110 - I don't doubt you do not know stock post the BEL sets....

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:47 am

All perfectly true, Ilfracombe

I said that the main res doesn't directly charge the aux res, the brake pipe charges the aux res, the main res charges the brake pipe

It is possible to make more than one application without significant charging of the brake pipe by the main res, in fact only 0.5 psi or so of increased pressure is needed, enough the throw the tiple valves to give a release prior to the next application

It has even been known for triple valves to get thrown to release without a brake valve being placed back to running

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:50 am

Admin wrote: 33110 - I don't doubt you do not know stock post the BEL sets....

eh? I do not know stock, post 5 BEL?

What I said was that I understand the Westinghouse brake system, used to teach it in fact still teach it

I have no direct technical knowledge of EMU's prior to SUB's and never said any different

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:03 am

Admin, would you please transfer after this post, to another new thread, titled "1936 Stock please"
How about my reply above?
The Brighton Belle as I was aware was all-steel frame and wooden body?

I was also certain that anything with wooden interior wouldn't be allowed onto electrified lines? Unless of course the current 5 BEL set is to be stripped of its current setup and to be redesigned with something else?
"Seeking the answers to life's problems, and the search for ultimate knowledge that is self-knowledge

after that post

thanks

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:04 am

Eh? Stock post 5 BEL as in knowing CEPS, VEPS and CIGS... As I said in a previous post!
The Westinghouse Brake system has changed over the years. Westinghouse was even incorporated into Steam!

You're previous threads made it sound as though you know stock prior to CEPS etc.... That is all I am stating.

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 33110 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:07 am

Ilfracombe

The link that I posted that went to the site of the group involved in the project suggests that the coaches are of all steel, ie steel frames, steel exterior panelling

As I said, I personally don't know, I just posted the link for everyone's reference

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:07 am

34017 Ilfracombe wrote:Admin, would you please transfer after this post, to another new thread, titled "1936 Stock please"
How about my reply above?
The Brighton Belle as I was aware was all-steel frame and wooden body?

I was also certain that anything with wooden interior wouldn't be allowed onto electrified lines? Unless of course the current 5 BEL set is to be stripped of its current setup and to be redesigned with something else?
"Seeking the answers to life's problems, and the search for ultimate knowledge that is self-knowledge

after that post

thanks

34017 Ilfracombe

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34017 Ilfracombe - I think this is relevant to the thread. As 5 BEL is still discussed within the post.

Thanks

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:34 am

Post after the last posting have been moved to another thread, relevant to the section to which it should be in.

Thanks

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:47 pm

I have been browsing the Internet. And ive found Bertha, situated now on the Swanage Railway. Which clearly shows wooden interior.

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/apmw/pullman/nov2000/apmw027.jpg

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news91.htm
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:55 pm

Would you not agree with me 33110, that looks like wood to me, around the body?

http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/car54.html
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:28 pm

Well to me that certainly looks like wood. I guess we will get the chnce to have a look around Doris at the Nine Elms Reunion.

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:32 pm

I have just replied to this in another place

Re: The return of the Brighton Belle?
Vulcan's Finest wrote:
4 COR wrote:
This looks like a Wooden frame to me?

http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebe ... car54.html


It is. But it isn't a 5-BEL vehicle.

What about VSOE's Pullmans, registered for 75mph mainline running. Are these all steel?



Vulcans Finest, that is unclear. I know VSOE, withdrew some pullman coaches many years ago. If I remember correctly, it involved wooden frames. I thought the Brighton Belle was mentioned at the time. But tbh, im not 100% sure. So I would like to find out more in August, regarding "Doris", and "Bertha"

I have never worked the Brighton Belle as a Driver, and the last time I rode on it was 50 years ago!
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:01 am

33110, has to agree with me on this one. Driver training, expensive; for how many trips per year if permitted. Secondly, the New Instructors have to be taught the Stock (5 BEL) BY whom, everyone with knowledge of the stock has now retired. Guard training, Brake Tests etc. The list is endless.
One thing about old stock, they keep going?
Very Happy
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:25 am

And this will - Except mainline....

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:36 pm

I have just replied elsewhere.

Quote

Its not only the question of Instructors, getting out and Driving the unit. Someone has to teach them the schematics, of the Electrical side of things, compressors, Westinghouse Brake, 750 Volts.

Or are you saying Barty, that its going to have 70 Volt supply, and EP Brake fitted etc?

In the case of 395/378s which are going to be in regular use. A leading Instructor would be trained by Hitachi on fault and failures, schematics etc. and he would train other Instructors on the said stock. Whom in turn will pass out Drivers,. a very expensive bill then to the tocs. Can you see that happening for one unit (ie 5 BEL) which wont be in regular use?

End Quote

IMHO, it just as you have said, not going to happen, on the Main Line. Drivers of today, are not used to a total 750 Volt unit. They are also not used to Westinghouse Brake. And the expense of training would be astronomical. It cost the training school a £2K on one traction in my day, heaven knows the cost now. And would LDCs allow only a few Drivers to be trained. I doubt it.

The best they can hope for is if the Bluebell do third rail to Ardingly
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:39 pm

Ardingly is still on the cards and they have been talking about 3rd rail so that they can run the 4-COR unit once it has been finished.

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:33 am

Admin wrote:Ardingly is still on the cards and they have been talking about 3rd rail so that they can run the 4-COR unit once it has been finished.


Been waiting for the 4 COR for 40 years, so if it ever runs again, then I will be most pleasantly surprised! Evil or Very Mad

Lets hope the 5 BEL, if it takes off, is within my lifetime Smile
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:45 am

I think it has been more of an issue with locating the rest of the carriages as far as the 4-COR is concerned and one of them needing a lot of extensive work doing to it - Last I heard?

Lets hope the 5-BEL does take off. But its going to be an issue as we know with money and passing it for mainline use....

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:12 am

As far as the 4 COR, is concerned they know where the carriages are. They have taken 40 odd years doing next to nothing IMHO!
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:11 am

This has only been a recent thing in recent years regarding location of these other coaches. I think the Blubell should push for Ardingly etc and then both the 5-BEL and the 4-COR can run quite happily down that stretch of line..... Thoughts wander on this one..... Very Happy

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:09 am

The more, I read of this, the more convinced I am, that this project "aint gonna" happen! Where are they going to get the motors from? Spare parts for the CIGs on the Lymington Branch, are in short supply. Then they talk of Brighton Belle being fitted with Push-Pull for a 73/33. The 442s are struggling for spares!
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 35005CP on Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:10 am

Are the motors the same? And will they fit more to the point? Push-Pull sounds a better idea to me....

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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

Post by 34017 Ilfracombe on Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:47 am

No the motors arent the same
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Re: 5 BEL ---- The Brighton Belle

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